Strong for Performance Podcast

005: How to Become a Revenue Rockstar

by John Livesay

If you find yourself anxious in sales situations with potential clients, this episode is for you! My guest John Livesay explains how to incorporate storytelling into your sales conversations to become memorable and compelling. John’s insights about handling objections, dealing with rejection and asking for the business are priceless. To go deeper with his material, get his best-selling book, Better Selling through Storytelling: The Essential Roadmap for Becoming a Revenue Rockstar, and subscribe to The Successful Pitch Podcast.

You’ll discover:

  • Why stories trigger attention and engagement more than facts or figures
  • How to overcome the fear of selling by becoming a master storyteller
  • Questions you can ask that help you discover other needs they have so you can add more value and expand the scope of the project
  • How to reframe objections and rejection so you maintain a positive mindset and momentum

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Read the Transcription

Hi, I’m Meredith Bell and welcome to another episode of Strong for Performance. I’m glad to have you with me today and I am delighted to have as my guest, John Livesay. John, welcome.

Meredith, thanks for having me on your wonderful new podcast.

Thank you for being with me. John is an extraordinary person. He has this expertise in sales that I really resonate with because it’s so aligned with my values as a person and how I like to build relationships, so I’m really looking forward to going deep with him on that. He also has his own successful podcasts called the Successful Pitch, which I highly recommend. And he’s also the author of a brand new book that I’m excited to talk about with him today because I’ve read it and there’s so much valuable information there and it’s called hold on just one … Thank you, John. Yes. For those of you watching the video, Better Selling Through Storytelling, The Essential Roadmap For Becoming A Revenue Rockstar. I love that title because I love the fact that you’re focused on storytelling. But before we go deep into the book, John, give us a little bit of background on your journey along this process in life and what you’ve learned yourself about storytelling.

Well, thank you for that wonderful warm introduction. My own process was I got my training in Silicon Valley selling multimillion dollar mainframe computers back in the day when IBM had a strong hold on almost all the companies and they used to sell with FUD, fear, uncertainty, and doubt. If you bought anything that wasn’t IBM and the computers broke, they’d point fingers at the other vendor and you’d lose your job. So the stakes were very high to get people to change their behavior, even if your product, was less expensive and more efficient and faster. People still had that unspoken fear going on. So that really was fantastic training to realize that information, price, and speed doesn’t get people to change their behavior or take a chance on something until you handle those issues around our survival mechanisms.

And then I moved to Los Angeles and got into the world of advertising, worked for an ad agency. And my job was to convince studios to let us edit their movies into commercials to promote getting people to go watch or buy the DVD. And that’s really where I learned about storytelling. Meredith. You’d have to take a two hour movie and condense it to 30 seconds, not give away the story, but intrigue them enough to go, “I want to watch that.” Or if they’d watched it in the theater, “Oh, I want to see it again.” Or if it had not done well in the theater, how do you reposition the movie to get people who weren’t interested in going to see it, to want to watch it on video? So that really honed my storytelling skills. And then I went on to have a 15-year sales career at Conde Nast, which publishes a lot of brands, GQ, and Vanity Fair and Vogue, and several … Art Digest.

And I learned that when you’re explaining the differences between all those different magazines and websites and brands that you really have to bring the editor’s voice to life to advertisers so that they would then understand, oh, if we’re launching this model of a Lexus or this particular line of clothing, this brand fits it best because that’s the mindset we’re targeting. And then the last five years I’ve been on the keynote speaking circuit teaching some of the lessons I’ve learned for the many years being in sales on that. The secret to selling is whoever tells the best story in a presentation is who they hire because stories make us magnetic and memorable.

Well, I love that. And of course as you know, my audience is coaches and consultants that work in the corporate world and with business owners and they ARE the product. Services and what they do is what’s being delivered. And so they are passionate about the benefits they bring to their clients, the work they do with them. Most of them, because I’ve worked with them because many of them have used our software products over the last 20 some years. One of the things I’ve seen consistently is they are not as comfortable in the marketing and sales. They much prefer to get referrals and not have to be calling on clients. One of the reasons I was so excited about having you on this show is because you have an approach that I think they will really resonate with them because it is aligned with how they naturally like to be.

And so one of the things that I think you’ll be sharing today is this aspect of storytelling, how they can incorporate that naturally in sales conversations that they’re having, just like they do it naturally in their coaching role or in their consulting role. It’s a matter of applying that skill in a different scenario. So I want to get you to talk about certain aspects of that whole sales process because you’ve just lived it for so long. It’s natural for you. So one of the first things is around the whole mindset of how can they change their thinking around this idea of, “I’m not a sales person,” but they really do need to be effective at selling in order to get new clients.

Well, you know, it’s interesting you said, you know, coaches and consultants have to sell themselves. They are the product and we all have to sell ourselves all the time, whether we’re working for a big company or working for ourselves. And I think that the first awareness is you sell yourself first, then you sell your company, even if it’s just a one person shop and what your brand stands for. And then you get into what it looks like to work with you as a coach or consultant. And most people jump to the product or service and forget the first two steps. So that’s the first “A-ha.” Sell yourself, the company, even if it’s just your own one person company and then … and the way to sell yourself without being pushy because that’s the old way, like give you enough information about me, then you’ll make a decision.

Now the irony is I have to sell myself as a keynote speaker. So I understand your coaches and consultants situation. Typically it’s between me and two other speakers. Someone’s, either my agents found me a lead or they’ve found me on the my book, or they’ve Googled persuasion keynote speaker, whatever it is that got them to see some of my video, they’re now saying, “Okay, we want to have a conversation and it’s between you and two other people.” I’ve helped a lot of companies who are in the same situation. So it’s a little Alice in Wonderland of I helped an architecture firm named Gensler and I’ve helped an executive search firm, DHR international. These are leaders in their fields and these are multimillion dollar, if not billion, dollar global companies. And guess what? They still have to pitch to a Honeywell or Disney or whoever for an hour, come in and tell us what your ideas, why should we hire you to be our search firm?

Why should we hire you to redesign this airport? And they have an hour to do it. And they were just showing their designs or giving a bunch of information. But when I told them that storytelling is the new way to become memorable, they went, “Oh,” because the problem I’m solving for those companies, Meredith, and that relates to the coaches and consultants is often it’s between you and at least one other person if not two others. And you hope, you know, the search firm was even saying, you know, we asked if we could be last hoping that that’ll make us memorable, but you can’t control that. So as I said earlier, the stories make you memorable. One of the clients that hired me was Anthem Insurance and I had to pitch myself against two other speakers and they said, you know, we have nurses and MBAs that have to call on doctors and they do not want to be asked to sell or even think of themselves like that.

What if we ask them to become storytellers who explained a story of another patient or another doctor they helped and told that story as a way to get people to agree with them or at least understand their point of view? And they’re telling stories, which is a whole different side of our brain, when we tell stories versus information and they love that. And I ended up getting that speaking engagement because I asked the questions, and here’s another big takeaway for your coaches and consultants. When you are talking about what particular problem you’re solving. In that case, the audience didn’t want to sell. Find out what other challenges they have going on that you could be part of that solution as well. So don’t just settle for solving one problem and hoping that’s enough to make you get the job. So I said, “Well, what else is happening during the two day summit if I’m selected to open it?”

They said, “Oh, at the end of the first day we’re going to have an improv session and a couple people from the audience are going to come up and pretend to be the doctor and some people will be the Anthem and the audience is going to shout out the objections that they get. And they usually hate objections.” And I said, “Oh well if I stayed and on stage with them after my keynote, during the improv and would whisper in their ear if they got stuck, how to keep it going.” Because improvisation is all about “yes and” and most problems with objections as you know, where the mindset is I get defensive. And if you shift your mindset to they’re not, this is a buying signal, they wouldn’t ask a question if they weren’t interested and not resent the question and “Yes, and let me explain that to you.”

Then it starts to come to life. So you know, one of the objections I got from Anthem Insurance, it was have you given a lot of other talks to healthcare companies? I said “I have not and I would be willing to stay and do this improv situation with you so that I would give extra value that would bring it come to life.” And they said “We hadn’t even considered that.” So you answer the objection and then you pivot it back to extra value. And now of course I’ve gone on to do multiple healthcare companies because I’m sure the same is true for your coaches and consultants. Once you break into an industry, then it’s much easier to get other clients like we Blue Cross or other healthcare people because they go, “Oh you understand our industry.” Does that help answer your question?

Oh absolutely. I think that’s really a key. And that was another question I have that you started addressing. It was this whole thing of objections. Because people do get anxious when they hear questions or challenges because they do tend to interpret it as not wanting to do business. But you just said it indicated an interest. So talk a little bit more about that because I think that’s important for how we think about objection. Even that word objections.

Even objection. Yes. Because we think we’re at trial. “Objection, Your Honor.” Yeah. And the gavel. You know, I’m going to tell you another story, of course. What a shocker. So after I had worked with the architecture firm and helped them win some pitches to get law firms redesigned, airports remodeled and I was up for, it was between me and two other speakers for the executive search firm and you get past the first person and then you say, “Okay, we’re going to talk to the CEO now.” And the CEO said, “Well have you spoken to any other search firms? Do you understand our industry at all?” And I said, “Well I haven’t. I did write article about the three challenges that I think executive search people face and I know that was sent as part in addition to my video.” So I put a little extra effort to compensate for that and realized by interviewing some of them, some of their big challenges like you just had your best year.

How do you overcome it? How to get people to trust you, how do you handle the perception that you’re all the same? And I said, “But well I haven’t done a talk. Your business is structured very similarly to architects. They’re divided into practice areas. The architects specialize in airports or law firms. You have a whole group of people that specialize in the entertainment industry or legal or financial and you have to pitch in an hour just like they do,” and I told the story of how I taught them how to become storytellers and I said, “Here’s the story that got Gensler to win a billion dollar airport renovation.” And when he heard that story that I was going to be teaching that in the keynote and the workshop and that they wouldn’t have to struggle with wondering what order they were going to present in. He said, “We want to have you come and do that.” So it wasn’t an exact fit, but it was, I connected the dots and said, look how similar your business is to that business and if it worked for them, that can work for you. Again, the secret to all of this, Meredith, is when you tell a story, have the potential client see themselves in the story and going on that journey with you and once they see, “Oh, if it worked for them, that could work for us,” then there’s the win.

That’s just brilliant because I think too often, I’ll speak for myself. I know there’ve been times when I’ve been in situations where, “Do you have experience in X?” And it’s like, “No, I don’t,” but to be able to, to tie in things, to show how I’m still able to help you because I’ve got other things that are related. I think that’s huge for someone when they’re in a sales situation and people are bringing up objections. The other takeaway that I’m having just in hearing you describe that is staying calm.

Oh yes.

And not feeling panic or anxiety or any negative emotions that can cause our brain to shut down.

Yes, because in order to think on our feet, we have to stay in the moment and not get so attached. Just the little ironic coda, if you will. The resolution to that story is, after I got hired to speak to the executive search firm and I did a workshop with them, guess what their objection is when they’re trying to pitch an entertainment company or a law firm. Your competition has more experience in our industry placing executives than you do. How do you handle that? And so it was the exact same objection I had that I was helping them overcome. Look for other people you’ve helped and connect those dots. So part of it is, as we said, the mindset, this objection, you don’t want to be a deer in headlights. What happens is the fight or flight response is kicking in.

So write down the three to five most common objections or concerns that you anticipate you might be asked. Then role play with a friend. Here’s how I would answer that. Do I sound defensive? Am I talking too fast? Because our heart rate gets going when we get defensive and we get scared, the fight or flight, what? You’re questioning my authority, my experience. You just need to take some breaths and say I’m calm and relaxed. And when you say that to yourself three times, then the irony is it becomes a tool for closing a sale as well. So silence is your friend, not your enemy. So when I help people with closing sales, you know the old way of doing it is, you know, I’m trying to sell your house. Do you want to buy the house Meredith. And then I’m waiting for you to say yes or no and all the negative self talk kicks in. Oh, I really need this commission. If I have to show her one more house, I’m going to lose my mind.

So the anxiety gets built up and we can’t, we’re not comfortable with the silence. So we say, “Hey if I ask them to follow the refrigerator and would you buy it then?” And you’ve started the whole process over just teaching my clients how to be comfortable with the silence in the room after you say, would you like to buy the house? By saying I am patient and calm. People pick up that energy. The old way used to be whoever speaks first loses and people know that game. It’s a battle of wills. But if you literally are patient and calm, giving them time to process and make a decision, then they pick that energy up.

And it’s the same thing with dating. You know, nobody wants somebody who’s so needy or pulling too tight on the ropes just to say, you know, this isn’t a fit. Maybe I know somebody else that would be a fit or maybe next year’s theme will be a better fit if you just keep it in that mindset of I’m successful. I’m not dependent on you for my success. I haven’t given away my power. Then people pick up that energy and that’s what they’re attracted to.

Yes, and you know you mentioned this thing of closing. Let’s go ahead and go there. Because one of the things I think some folks are really good at is having conversations. You know, people who are coaches and consultants naturally ask questions and listen well, but at the moment when it’s time to ask and talk business together, there’s this hesitation. So you had some great ideas in the book and I’d love you to just share. What do you recommend when that moment is there, when they sense this could be the right time to ask what, what are the questions? What’s the-

I think we, before we even start with the questions, we start with the mindset again. You know when I fly from LA to New York and the pilot comes on and says we’re now landing at JFK, not one person stands up and says, “What? We’re landing? I thought we were just going to fly around forever.” And yet we feel like we’re going to have endless conversations with potential clients and never land the plane. So the mindset is I’m a copilot with my current and future clients. We’re flying this plane together and we know there’s a flight plan and we know we’re going to land the plane one way or the other, yes or no. So that you don’t start, you’re not all nice and relaxed and rapport building and asking your consulting questions and then you’re like, look, now I’ve got to put my hat on and force this plane to land. It’s like this is as natural as landing a plane. It’s expected and it’s, I’m staying relaxed and calm through the whole process.

Now instead of trying to get someone like Maslow, the famous psychologist that if the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, you tend to go around looking for nails to hit. So again, if the only tool in your toolbox in a sales situation is you want to buy, you want to hire me, you know, when do you want to start? Blah, blah, blah. Hammer, hammer, Hammer. But if you’ve told a story of someone who is just like you who was struggling with a pitch problem and you couldn’t control what order you went in, and once they started telling stories of how they helped somebody else get this airport renovated really fast, they won business and told stories of why they came. Architects, they became memorable without having to be pushy after all that comes together. So does that sound like the kind of journey you’d like to go on with me? Is the closing question in a way that I’m in the story? Yes. I want that journey. I want the same kind of outcome that you gave the architecture firm to do for my team right here at the search firm.

That’s a great question. Would you repeat it? I just a really good one for people to remember and embed and use.

Does that sound like the kind of journey you’d like to go on with me?

I just love that.

Because you’re the Sherpa, you know the hero of the story is the client, not me or I’m, you know, Yoda in Star Wars. I’m mentoring them, helping them. And coaches and consultants certainly do that.

Right.

And so with me, so you’re not going alone.

Yes. Well, and you know, if you start with that question and thinking about that’s how you want to end, you know, then you need to back up and look at how am I going to structure a conversation, the story that I tell so they get emotionally engaged with it and they’re anxious to get on that plane with you or whatever it is. to go where you’re going.

I love that you said, you know, we were basically telling people, reverse engineer what you’re doing. And when I was working on my TEDx talk, which is Be The Lifeguard Of Your Own Life, the TEDx coach that I was working with said, “All right, three questions,” and this is great for your consultants and coaches to think of too. When you have a conversation about new business, what do I want the audience to think? What do I want them to feel and what do I want them to do? So that’s your three things. Before you give a talk, before you give a pitch, have that outcome in mind. I want them to think that I’m the best coach or consultant that’s there because of my X, Y, and Z. I want them to feel comfortable and safe with me and feel confident that this is, I’m the right choice and I want them … An action that I want them to do is to say, send me the paperwork, or yes, let’s. When can we start? Or that kind of thing. So you’re like, all right, so how do I get there? And as you said, the stories have to have a little bit of an emotional hook. Should I tell you the story that helped Gensler win that billion dollar airport renovation?

Oh, absolutely. You know, you are such a magnificent storyteller.

Oh, thanks.

So that’s one of the most fun things about your book, which I’ll plug for you because it’s wonderful. You tell great stories but hearing you tell it. So yes, please do.

So the old way that they would pitch when they were brought in for these presentations would be, here’s our designs, here’s the before and after pictures and this is what it looked like during the rehearsal. And you know, we did this and we did that and X, Y, Z. And I said those pictures are great but there’s no story there. So I pulled out a story of by asking them a lot of questions because the story has, you know, exposition. How long ago did you do that? What was the problem? How’d you solve that? Were there any challenges? Don’t make it seem easy. And then what’s the resolution? What’s life like after working with you? So that being said, using that structure, they said three years ago we were hired by Jet Blue to remodel the airport at JFK. The problem was we had to rip up all the floors in the middle of the night and get it done in time so that the stores could open and not lose any revenue.

So that was a lot to do in 12 hours. At 9:00 the stores closed and we started taking out the tiles. We had all our vendors on call all night long, anticipating any potential problem that could go wrong. Sure enough, at 2:00 in the morning, a fuse blew and we had to call the vendor and he got there in 20 minutes, fixed it. And at 8:59 in the morning, the last tile went back down on the floor and the stores opened on time and now JFK has gotten all kinds of press in the New York Times and got ranking from 24 to number one in two years after our renovation. That’s how they won that job at the airport because instead of me saying we anticipate problems, we tell a story where we anticipate a problem. The drama.

Yes. I was just thinking.

The last tile going down. Yes, right. But I also painted the picture and then the exposition of that story is they got press, they won, they went up in the ranking. So you do paint these. All of that happens from working with us.

I love that. Very powerful on so many levels. And you know folks who are experienced consultants and coaches have these stories and they don’t always think about how to package them in a way like you just explained that you did with Gensler. And I’m curious, because one of the other things I wanted to explore with you is when you have a client like that where you’ve really had a great impact in how they make their presentations. Sometimes coaches and consultants, because of what they specialize in, they get into a client and they do that one thing and then they’re looking for the next client. When in reality there are lots of opportunities within that one organization to go deeper or wider and have a greater impact. And I know with you that happened with Gensler. So tell us just to help stimulate the thinking of our listeners, what are some of the other ways that you serve that particular client?

Well, originally I was brought into their DC office where their co CEO is based to present to their management team. And the management team had many practice areas underneath them and once they heard how to start winning more of these pitches and get new business, someone in the audience said, “I want you to come to my office and teach this in New York.” And then someone else said, “Oh, we’re having trouble in Hong Kong as well. How can you help us there? Somehow they are going with the lowest price vendor but they’re not happy with the outcome.” “Oh there’s a client that we had but they went away and now we’re trying to win them back. Can you help us with that as well?” So it just became this ongoing international global thing where I was speaking multiple times and helping multiple divisions win multiple pitches, and then you just start sharing that information and then ironically somebody left that firm and went to another firm and then they hired me.

So when you do a really good job for someone, they want to have you spread it within the company and then if they leave the company, they also want to bring you on because they know, trust, and like you. Let’s just touch on that really quickly, really, really fast. The old way of doing that is, you know, if people know me, then they’ll trust me and then they’ll like me and my whole premise is that order is reversed. My whole thought is people have to trust you first. It’s a gut thing. In fact the handshake came about to show you didn’t have a weapon in your hand. Remember that fight or flight response we talked about during objections, right? So trust is built with credibility, social proof, eye contact. Then it moves from the gut to the heart. Do I like you? The more empathy you show, the more likable you are.

Doctors spend more time with patients they like. Teachers spend more time with students they like. Architecture firm was told, look, we’re going to hire the people we liked the most because it was a five year project. You all can do the design. They’re like, get John in here. How do we up our empathy factor? And then it goes from the gut to the heart to the head. Will this work for me so you can talk about somebody else, a case study, whatever it is. But if that person doesn’t see themselves in the story, they go, “Well that was nice for them but this wouldn’t work for us.”

Boy, that is a really critical point because I can think of different people that I know that have put together very effective case studies, but you’re talking the facts unless you bring in those elements you were just describing to make sure that you cover those pain points, that you really make clear what you were outlining earlier, what the problem was and even going deeper, what were some of the other problems that you uncovered because questions and then the journey you took them on and then the results that they got afterwards. So you recommend that same formula, if you will, for whether you’re doing a a large group presentation or making a pitch to a small group of decision makers or even one.

Yes, storytelling is in our DNA. We used to sit around the glow campfires and tell stories, and now we sit around the glow of PowerPoints. Storytelling is how you pull people in. People relax when you tell a good story, they hope it’s entertaining, they hope there might be a little suspense. So whether it’s one or thousands of people, it’s, it’s your go-to tool.

The other thing you had mentioned in your book that I wanted to just touch on is this idea when people are on a team and they’re making a presentation and they typically are saying, “I’m John and I do this,” and “I’m Meredith and I did that.” That’s what your version of that is because I love it.

Well, it’s interesting. So many times, like in the architecture pitch, they’re like, “You know, we have all these slides. We might just skip over the team slide or we might just go through that really fast.” That is your most important slide. Going back to the people, hire people they trust, like and know where you need to pull out that story. So instead of just saying how long you’ve been there and what you do, I had them do this exercise. What motivated you to become an architect? Where did you work before here and we come back with a story. So Bob would say, “Hi, my name is Bob. You know I was 11 years old. I played with Legos. That’s what inspired me to become an architect. Now I have a son that’s 11. I still play with Legos with him and I bring that same passion I had as a kid to architecture in this particular project.” Sue gets up. “Before working here I was in the Israeli army and I bring that same discipline and focus I learned there to make sure this project is going to come on time and under budget.”

Oh, whose story do they remember? You have the story of the team and the story of helping the airport renovation and the drama of that. That’s the combination that wins this pitch.

Yes. That to me is just so powerful because sometimes we feel like we shouldn’t say too much about ourselves personally because-

Listen, you need to tell your story of origin. Yes.

Yeah, and I think that that is really worth somebody taking time to think through. What can I bring out about my past that demonstrates to them I have undertaken hard things, I’ve undertaken things. I understand your journey. So I-

Yes, here’s what motivated me to become a coach. Here’s what motivated me to become a consultant. I was in your shoes. I experienced this pain. Me, it’s, you know, my personal mission is to help as many people as possible get off the self esteem roller coaster, only feeling good if things are going great or your numbers are up or bad if things are not going well because I was on that self esteem roller coaster. the way I found to get off of it is first you realize that who you are is bigger than your identity or your results. And secondly, tell stories that pull people in instead of pushing out information and then you’re off that roller coaster.

Well, speaking of the roller coaster reminded me, I wanted to also ask you about, let’s say you’ve done everything right and you know, get to know, yes. How do you deal with rejection? How, because you were in sales for so long, you got lots of notes.

I did. I still do.

Tell us how you worked through that. So you’re not discouraged and lose your momentum for the next opportunity.

Well, the first part is no now doesn’t mean no forever. So have that as a mindset. Then the second part is never reject yourself. I used to go up against Vanity Fair or Vogue or all these other magazines when I was at W magazine. I’d be like, oh, maybe the right those other magazines are better. Or maybe another salesperson could’ve gotten a yes and I’m rejecting myself and my product.

Wait a minute, I’m not going to agree with the no, it’s just not a no for now and it’s not a fit for what they’re doing, but there’s plenty of other people who need what I’m doing. And when I spoke to Land Rover and Jaguar, they deal with a lot of rejection, even selling luxury cars. And I said, “What you need to do is cleanse your palate, your mind,” so you’d get this no, somebody storms out of the dealership. “I’m not buying this from you” or whatever. Call up somebody you sold the car to. “Hi, it’s John from the Land Rover, Jaguar dealer. Just wanted to see how you’re enjoying your Jaguar. Any questions? What’s your favorite part? when are you coming in for servicing?” Whatever, have a conversation. You’re not selling them anything. You’re just, “I love my new car. John. Thank you so much.” You’re cleansing your palate so you don’t take that negative rejection with you to the next person that walks into the dealership. Well we can do that. If you’re getting stuck on, remember or call somebody else that you did a good job for and have that energy in for the next one.

Oh, that’s great advice. Thank you. I love that. So what else, in wrapping up, would you like to say related to storytelling? Any other tidbits or points or tips that somebody could use?

I think the key is to realize that everyone can be a storyteller. It’s a skill. You don’t have to be an athlete at it. You don’t have to be Meryl Streep of acting at it. Just learn some basics, practice it and make sure that you, the hero is the client and not you in the story. And then just keep refining it. And once you do that, it’s going to give you a whole other level of confidence and you’re going to go from pushing and trying to be memorable to being magnetic and pulling people in and you’re going to not burn out. You’re going to be so much happier doing what you’d love to do because you’re a storyteller. Sharing the stories of other people you’ve helped as opposed to a pushy sales person. And when that happens, you become a revenue rock star because it’s energy that gets pulled into magnetically. People are happy to refer you.

Yes, great. Great way to bring that all together. So let’s look at your book again, Better Selling Through Storytelling. I highly recommend it. I would recommend you invest in that because John gives wonderful examples. It’s conversational. And his storytelling ability is a wonderful model for anyone else that really wants to hone their storytelling skills. You give a great framework there. So John, thank you so much. You’ve delivered tremendous value to our listeners and I appreciate your being with me today.

My pleasure, and I have a free gift for your listeners. If they text the word pitch, P-I-T-C-H, to 66866 they can get a sneak peek of my book for free.

Oh, that is great. Thank you. And if they want to connect with you, where can they find you online?

My website is my name, JohnLivesay.com and if you can’t remember that or the title of the book, just remember the Pitch Whisperer you can Google that and all my content will show up.

That’s great. And that’s John Livesay, L-I-V-E-S-A-Y. Thank you John. And good luck with your book sales. I know it’s going to be a real winner because you deliver so much value there.

Thanks Meredith.